Elyse Sewell ([info]elysesewell) wrote,

the mad professor bores your ass

Oh man, too much modeling, Almanacking and tsunami-report reading over the past few days has dulled my wits. I had to abort my attempt at updating last night after I stared at the would-be entry for too long, wondering if it sounded stupid. Tomorrow I'm going to Guangzhou, China for 2 days of shooting a catalog in a "garden"; this was the agency's note to me on my job details: "Weather is cold raining in GZ around 3'C ,pls wear enough jacket." Uh-oh!


I've been obsessing over the Chinese language for several days now, and trying to mentally compose my thoughts into a coherent and interesting Livejournal entry. The following behemoth is what came out when I sat down at my computer; whatever, I've decided to go ahead and post it rather than try to pare it down.

Learning bits and pieces of other languages is one way I've found to occupy my idle model mind (and also to annoy those around me). Not only am I immersed in a foreign language every time I set foot ouside any hovel I may occupy, but few of my playmates (colleagues?) are native English speakers, so I have access to free lessons in random phraseology in languages as diverse as Afrikaans and Czech. I'm completely incapable of useful communication in any tongue besides Spanish, but it's still entertaining to memorize little bits and pieces like this:

"She is in the shower" in Ukranian- for the mother of my young roommate, whose phone calls from Kiev when Lina was in the shower would otherwise end in both of us shouting incomprehensibly at each other.

"The horse's hooves are loud on the cobblestones." In Hungarian, this is a tongue-twister along the lines of "rubber baby buggy bumpers."

"I am horny for you" in German. In a scene right out of an emphatically unfunny sitcom, my wily German roommate actually convinced me to say this to a German client we met at a casting in Milan, claiming it meant "I am pleased to meet you" (totally reasonable if one knows "ich bin" and "auf dich" but not "geil"). Then we left the casting and Chevy Chase crashed our Yugo right into the Eiffel Tower! Ain't Europe wacky?

Anyway, the point is that I like to learn other languages, and it was with an optimistic heart that I bought a little Cantonese phrasebook before left for Hong Kong. To this day, though, I can't say a single damn word in Cantonese! Not even ONE thing. The only two things I thought I could say for a while ("What are you looking at" and "thank you") cannot be understood by the Chinese-speakers I say them to.

The spoken form of Cantonese, the dialect of Chinese spoken in Hong Kong and a few parts of China, is completely different from the more common dialect of Chinese (Mandarin, the language with the most native speakers in the world). The devilry of this tongue is in the vowel tones, of which there are seven in common use (Mandarin has four). It's really difficult for me to explain this aspect of the language because this kind of tonality doesn't exist in English. Tones are an obligatory and essential part of every syllable; they are classified by "highness" or "lowness," and by "risingness" or "fallingness." So, for example, consider the word "chi." A speaker may repeat this syllable with (for example) a "high rising tone", a "medium falling tone" or a "low level tone"- to a Chinese speaker, each intonation would sound completely different (and have different meanings), but to me, each repetition would sound like the exact same word, just a little more or less, uh, "singsongy."

There's no reliable way to write Cantonese words in English- the 26-letter alphabet would be pathetically inadequate to indicate which phonetic nuance to employ when pronouncing a word. And even if I could somehow read what my mouth and nose were supposed to be doing, I sometimes find myself anatomically incapable of reproducing the sound- even some consonants! Even worse, my would-be teachers occasionally try to demonstrate the difference between two sounds that, to me, are literally indistinguishable. Like, "No, not 'hao,' 'hao'!"

When thinking about this, I was reminded of conversations I had with my Japanese manager over the difference between the oft-reversed /r/ and /l/, and with my Hungarian friends over their confusion of /w/ and /v/ (incidentally, I consider this to be quite an intimate conversation- I would never barge up to someone I didn't know and trust and bellow, "Sooo, let's talk about how you say 'willage' instead of 'village'"). If my friends hadn't learned English until they were adults, they will forever have trouble distinguishing between phoneme pairs that don't exist in their native tongue. This is according to my mom, who's a speech/language pathologist. She wrote the following to me in an email:

The thing of it is, that infants are born being able to differentiate between all sounds: /r/ and /l/, /w/ and /v/, /click/ and /clack/. As an infant grows, unused neurons are "pruned", so to speak. So if an infant grows up hearing /r/ and /l/, then those neurons get strengthened. If an infant gets raised with only an /r/ sound in his language, then the differentiating neuron for /r/ and /l/ will be "pruned". Now, its hard for a Japanese speaker to differentiate between /r/ and /l/ because they are acoustically similar. In "SLP speak" they are called liquids: the frequencies and mouth/tongue positions are similar when they are produced. A Japanese speaker could differentiate between an /l/ and an Australian Aboriginal "click" easily because they are acoustically so different.

On a side note, there is a new "toy" being marketed for infants. It's a noisemaker to put in his crib that supposedly contains all the sounds of the 100 most common languages in the world. The way it works is that the baby's brain would become "normalized" hearing all the sounds and later if that baby wanted to learn German or whatever, he would already have the guttural sounds in his bank of neurons. Interesting idea-have no clue if its well researched or not.

Neural pruning is at its peak in the toddler years but continues on through teen years. Thats why a rich and varied babyhood is so important- it feeds a brain that is eager to make connections. The connections can always be made at a later date, but as you well know, it gets much harder and requires a lot more effort and you never really "get it" as readily as you would if you had "gotten it" when you were younger.

See, now you got me going. I'm probably going to give you way more info than you really need.


Isn't that fucking amazing? Thanks mom!

So I've concluded that even basic Cantonese essentials like "I am horny for you" will elude me forever. And pathological long-windedness will hound me forever:

The written form of Chinese (written Mandarin and Cantonese are identical) is wholly "ideographic": each written character stands for a particular word or idea rather than, like English, a sound or, like Korean, a syllable. In order to be literate in Chinese, a student must memorize thousands of characters! But with so many tantalizingly useful neologisms originating from the comments section of this Livejournal alone (areolage, anyone?), how does the Chinese written language keep current?!

Consider new technical terms: according to a book I looked at in the library, these are often cobbled together from existing Chinese words. The result is a word whose meaning is easier to guess than perhaps it would be in English (where the origin is more likely to be Greek or Latin). Check these character combinations (Lyvovin, An Introduction to the Languages of the World).
movie: "electric shadow"
airplane: "fly engine"
transformer: "change pressure implement"
generator: "emit electricity engine"

However, some new words, especially foreign words, are written "phonetically"; that is, as two or more combined ideographs whose consecutive pronunciations approximate the foreign word. My book gives this example:
"Malay": written in Chinese as a combination of two characters, "mai" and "lei," which translate to "horse" and "come"!

My apologies for a relatively dry entry. It's just hard to get worked up anymore what with Darryl ostensibly out of town for the past couple of days. Oh well! I will be interested to read comments, especially from Chinese speakers, when (if) I return from Guangzhou.

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[info]x__fallbackdown

December 28 2004, 14:34:55 UTC 7 years ago

This is just a random comment but then again, what isn't these days? I can't believe you're coming to Guangzhou. Guangzhou - despite what you've been told is NOT three degrees; it's more like fourteen or fifteen - is such the obscure city in China. Plus, it hasn't rained in a long time but that could all change tomorrow. The weather forecasters don't even know what they're predicting anymore.

In all the twelve years I've lived here no one famous ever visits (I refuse to count Sarah Brightman although Deep Purple make the cut.)

Can I warn you now that the sun refuses to shine in Guangzhou right now and that the parks are the most unimpressive parks you will ever encounter.

Hm. Cantonese and Mandarin are both spoken here in GZ but Cantonese is harder to speak - I think. I believe there are six tones as opposed to the four tones in Mandarin.

Well, I'd say have a blast in Guangzhou but that might be a little hard considering the bleakness of the weather here right now.

P.S. Any news as to the name of the "park"?

P.P.S. Pretty much all the grass in GZ is dying right now because of the cold weather. It's all a sickly yellow color.

[info]x__fallbackdown

December 28 2004, 15:38:27 UTC 7 years ago

You know, I take that back. It got pretty damn cold and the ATV World news roundup agrees with me. It was around nine degrees today and "will get colder and colder in the days to come." Psh, talk about the weather forecast of doom...

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 14:35:28 UTC 7 years ago

Languages

I'm not from China, but I've heard about the things you bring up. They say it's very easy asking things you don't mean like "shall we go to the brothel?" or "do you want to be beaten up?" if you have the wrong tuning.

I'm a little skeptical to that noisemaker. As we all know, a young child learns a new language, including "Chinese", in just a few months. During WW2 Finnish children came to Sweden in December 1939, forgot their Finnish for Swedish, went back to Finland in April and forgot the Swedish for Finnish in a couple of months. In 1941 they were back here and learned Swedish once more and their Finnish was brushed out. Then they went back to Finland once again in 1944 and got their Finnish back, but their brains were older now, so all Swedish wasn't wiped out.

But that was ONE language being replaced by another. You surely can listen to all language sounds in a noisemaker, but does it make it easier to pronounce foreign words when you are older? I don't know, but I think it is more complicated than that.

Ola

[info]cureless

December 28 2004, 14:52:41 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Languages

I've got personal experience with this. As a child I learned Mandarin first. Then I went to school and had a crash-course in English, Brooklyn accent provided for free. I promptly forgot 99% of the Chinese I had learned as a child. When I was 11 my mother sent me to Taiwan and stranded me there for a summer for three years straight. Cultural immersion is a wonderful thing, I tell you. Anyway, I now speak both Chinese and English fluently. The Chinese is slipping the more time I spend in America, though luckily I have friends from Taiwan at college so I can practice.

I picked up Chinese relatively quickly in the first three months I was in Taiwan because of the training I'd had as a child. If one learns a language, or the rudiments of one, as a child, I believe it definitely makes it easier to pronounce foreign words when older. It's like ear training in music. You never really forget it. I think a multilingual child feels more of an affinity to the languages he has learned. While studying French my teachers always talked about the "language sense", the instinctive feel for how the language should be spoken, how to pace it, how to inflect it; they wanted us to cultivate as much of it as we could. This is the sense that is instilled in the multilingual child - trust me on this, I was pulling words out of my ass in Chinese that I never knew I knew and saying things in a much more sophisticated (read: not 4th grade level) manner during my sink-or-swim stint in Taiwan.

As for the mispronouncing things in Chinese, yes, that's quite hilarious. I've had people say things like, "Please fry me in a wok" instead of "please kill me", "Can I have bastard soup?" instead of "Can I have wonton soup?", and "I'd like to have some dumplings" instead of "I'm going to bed."

Anonymous

3 years ago

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 14:43:50 UTC 7 years ago

Fascinating read, especially this little tidbit: "On a side note, there is a new "toy" being marketed for infants. It's a noisemaker to put in his crib that supposedly contains all the sounds of the 100 most common languages in the world. The way it works is that the baby's brain would become "normalized" hearing all the sounds and later if that baby wanted to learn German or whatever, he would already have the guttural sounds in his bank of neurons. Interesting idea-have no clue if its well researched or not.

Neural pruning is at its peak in the toddler years but continues on through teen years. Thats why a rich and varied babyhood is so important- it feeds a brain that is eager to make connections. The connections can always be made at a later date, but as you well know, it gets much harder and requires a lot more effort and you never really "get it" as readily as you would if you had "gotten it" when you were younger."

Good to know if I ever decide to have a child.

Btw, when did you find out that you actually said "I am horny for you" to that client? Did your roommate tell you this afterwards?

[info]cureless

December 28 2004, 14:44:13 UTC 7 years ago

Elyse, I expect you will be quite the linguist (and a cunning one at that) by the time you finish your modeling rounds.

I'm very excited to hear that you're interested in learning Chinese! I would, however, press you to learn both Cantonese and Mandarin, because although in the south everyone either speaks Cantonese or Shanghainese, everyone everywhere will understand Mandarin. (And, oh God, in my horribly elitist opinion, Mandarin is more beautiful. Chalk it up to my Taiwanese heritage.)

When we phoneticize Chinese we use a horrible system called pinyin. In Mandarin, it's actually pronounced "ping(1) ying(1)", which makes no sense to me because pinyin really should have the Gs included. Chinese has both words ending in n and words ending in ng, so it's somewhat confusing.

There are two different systems between China and Taiwan. In China, most everyone learns pinyin. In Taiwan, we learn the Chinese alphabet, called zhu(4) ying(1) fu(2) hao(4), with which we can spell the words and not have to use characters. This is extremely useful to younger American-born Chinese in Chinese school, as I spent four years doing exactly that and never learning a damn character. Unfortunately, the Chinese in China won't have a clue about what you're writing. The utility of the alphabet is evident in pronunciation.

You'll have noticed the numbers I put next to the Chinese words by now. Those symbolize the four main (in Mandarin, at least, since I have not one clue about Cantonese other than to say "fuck your mother") tones. 1 is the straight tone. 2 is the rising tone, 3 is the down, then up tone (written as a checkmark; the word "hao" from "ni hao" in Mandarin is the best example) and 4 is the falling tone. Very rarely do we use the 5th tone, which is a variant of the 1st tone, just staccato.

I would continue on, but speaking Mandarin is a serious impediment to someone who wants to learn Cantonese. I'll let one of the Cantonese speakers 'round these parts do the rest.

The last thing I have to say is in reference to Guangzhou: Elyse, be very wary of the meat.

[info]x__fallbackdown

December 28 2004, 15:34:13 UTC 7 years ago

Yes. The meat is very...suspicious.

Relax, as long as you don't eat at any obscure, in-the-middle-of-nowhere restaurants where the floor and walls a barely visible from the grease that coats them you'll be fine.

[info]rimokon

7 years ago

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 14:45:18 UTC 7 years ago

Hello from Ben in New York City

I find languages fascinating as well. Have you ever read any Noam Chomsky? He has a book called "On Language.: Very interesting stuff.
How is the tsnaumi/earthquake playing in the news where you are?
Have you shown us all of your roommates?

Anonymous

December 29 2004, 11:18:56 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Hello from Ben in New York City

just for your information,
the evening news last night spend about 35 minutes on the subject, out of a 45 minutes broadcast, more or like explain the huge scale of this tragedy.
DO ANYTHING U CAN TO HELP THE VICTIMS PLEASE!

[info]musedfreeway

December 28 2004, 15:05:36 UTC 7 years ago

heh. you're right. cantonese is sometimes too difficult to learn. i'm from hongkong. also, what makes it worse is new phrases appear almost everyday. it's hard to catch up with the current trend for foreigners.
"malay" is really translated into "horse" and "come", it's actually a restaurant in kowloon. cuz "ma" is somewhat like "horse", and "lay" sounds like "come". there you have "horse" and "come" together. haha!
one more thing, cantonese speakers are usually criticized to lack a voice tonality when they speak english. (ugh, my awful personal experience) because whenever we speak cantonese we don't really "connect" the words together like we do in english. and the "highness" and "lowness" thing are completely different from what we encounter in english too. i tried very hard to speak with voice tonality when i spoke to this australian guy, but afterwards he still said to me,"your lack of voice tonality makes me feel like you don't want to talk to me." lol.

[info]raphaela

December 28 2004, 15:08:19 UTC 7 years ago

That was actually a fascinating entry. Maybe because I've been studying foreign languages for so long.

Neural pruning also happens with vision. When babies are born, they have the ability to distinguish the differences between, say, all the members of a muskrat family. But as they grown, since they don't see muskrats everyday, they lose that ability and soon all muskrats look the same to them.

It's been suggested that this is why babies raised in areas with little ethnic diversity might grow up to be adults who have difficulty distinguishing differences among members of ethnic groups.

Science is amazing.

[info]mmfung

December 28 2004, 15:23:39 UTC 7 years ago

hi elyse!my name is ken.I come from Hong Kong.
I saw you on TV since TVB broadcasted the show last year.
I like you very much!!Last week I went Tsim Sha Tsui and Mong Kok and I saw your face on some posters!!it's awesome!
work hard elyse...you're liitle bit famous in hong kong now....i hope you will enjoy your work and have a nice time in china...there are many delicious food in guangzhou!

[info]adambomb_

December 28 2004, 15:32:52 UTC 7 years ago

Dry? I’ll have you know this is a virtual carbon-copy of the lead item in this week’s Enquirer (granted, the Enquirer’s version had close-up shots of Christina Aguilera’s cellulite, but otherwise the similarities are uncanny).

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 16:07:05 UTC 7 years ago

Hey, here's a native Cantonese& Mandarin speaker.
I'm glad to read that you're kinda "interested" in Chinese. Ya, you're right,Chinese words are ideographic, each word can stand for more than 1 meaning, eg. the word"chang" can mean "old", "long", as well as "grow up", and each meaning is differentiated by different tones.

In regard to the written form of Chinese, even for the same word, it is different between the Mainland and Hong Kong. The Chinese words that can be seen in Mainland are called simplified chinese, they are less complicated; the Chinese words that we are using in Hong Kong are called traditional chinese. So sometimes it can be really confusing.

There are about 2 million modern Chinese words, but only 3500-7000 of them are commonly used, so I think we, most of the students know how to write a few thousand different Chinese words. That seems unbelievable, but I don't, we just kinda get over it.

So, I don't know if the above stuff can help you to understand more, but I'm more than happy to answer your questions about Chinese words (if I'm able to).

Well, enjoy yourself in Guangzhou!

Jeanie T

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 16:20:44 UTC 7 years ago

Learning Manderin is more useful because all chinese know that but not all know Cantonese. I am a native Cantonese speaker, so I dont think Cantonese is that difficult to learn. Chinese characters are difficult to write, for foreigners, but I still hope you find fun in knowing a few of them. They might be like some pictures in your view. ~ :D

[info]aerislanne

December 28 2004, 17:00:37 UTC 7 years ago

--speak Shanghainese, Mandarin, English, French and enough Cantonese to get by; born in the US, currently staying in Shanghai--

Even if you think you're fluent, you're not. It's a bitch. I currently am working as an intern at a multinational computer company doing webdesign, and there's NO tech books here in English. So it's me and the ol' dictionary, plugging away...

There are 5 or 6 main groups of recognized Chinese dialects and they're all considered separate languages because they're mutually unintelligible despite having a common written language. Shanghainese has phenomes that Cantonese and Mandarin do not (though, there are some similarities; one can kind of think of it as in between Cantonese and Mandarin at times). Taiwanese Mandarin is horrible. (My opinion as a Mainlander.) There are few discrepancies between "tongue curling" and "not tongue curling," especially when pronouncing "s" vs. "sh" sounds. Interesting to study. You can really trace how the languages evolved as the groups of people moved around-- Shanghai (Wu language) is influenced partly by the ancient Yue people who lived in the region, who later migrated to Southern China. Cantonese is known today as the "Yue" language. So it accounts for a few similarities.

As for tones-- I picked Mandarin up watching TV, Shanghainese at home, English and French at school, and Cantonese from my boyfriend. You'd think that I'd be able to pronounce almost everything, knowing so many languages, but nooo.... I can't trill my rs properly in French. But I try.

What I think is a even more fun phenomenon: code-switching! Whenever I'm in Shanghai in my brother, we have conversations where we switch languages like, every other sentence.

[info]cureless

December 28 2004, 18:31:05 UTC 7 years ago

I must agree on the Taiwanese Mandarin. I feel like such a sellout! It's all relative, really. My Taiwanese friends tell me that I sound mainlander, but all the mainlanders can tell instantly that I'm Taiwanese. The agony! At least I don't have a Beijing accent.

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 17:01:53 UTC 7 years ago

Fun foreign phrases

Here's a few more possibly useful foreign phrases for you:

If you're ever back in Japan, and someone seriously annoys you (I'm sure that would never happen), try this:

Omae wo korosu. ("I'll kill you.") Omae is an appropriately rude pronoun for this pronouncement, too.

If you need to tell off a Catholic priest, try these:

Pomex perfectus es. ("You are a total asshole.") You could also play a joke on someone and claim that this one actually means "You did a great job."

Ede fimumque morere, sentina. ("Eat shit and die, vermin.")

If you need to curse out a Cantonese speaker, try these (apologies for the lack of pronunciation help):

Hum Ka Chaan (or Hum Ka Ling). ("May your entire family die, leaving you a lowly orphan and bum.")

Lai Lou Mou Ge Chav Hai. ("Your mother has a very smelly and dirty cunt.")

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 22:12:48 UTC 7 years ago

More fun with Latin

Palpare puerum alterum aram. ("Go molest another altar boy.")

Habes cucumerem parvissimum. ("You have a very small penis.")

Secteris tunc stolam a Georgio Puero geritur. ("May the next skirt you chase be worn by Boy George.")

The last two may also be helpful when dealing with Darryl.

[info]croupier

December 28 2004, 17:20:46 UTC 7 years ago

Useless information: Thanks to the tonal languages, an incredible number of people who grow up speaking Chinese and Vietnamese have perfect pitch.

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 18:09:27 UTC 7 years ago

So not true! (Personal experience.)

I'll have to plump Taiwanese Mandarin, since it's the dialect that I speak (gotten from the parents). You putong hua peeps all sound like you have a stick up your heinies. *winky*

There's an interesting book -- Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs & Steel" -- that looks at, among many many other things (that determined why the Spanish conquered the Incan empire instead of the other way around), the development of written languages. To attempt a paraphrase: oral languages preexist written (duh), but when by close contact one language cottons onto the fact that another language is being written down, they'll try to write down theirs as well, oftentimes by using the first language's method, be it ideogrammatic or alphabetic (there's a third type, syllabaries, of which definition I'm still not certain). In that case, the one language will adapt the alphabet to its sounds, somewhat independent of what the letter's sound is in the host language. Which is why there are seemingly significant differences between W and V (and Y and J) in Eastern European languages vs. Western European. Also see the Cyrillic alphabet, which used the mere shape of Latin letters independent of its phonemes as a model for their alphabet, where their "H" makes an "n" sound.

Similarly, the Japanese had their own autonomous spoken language, but with their adoption of Chinese ideograms, they kept the original meanings of the words, but the word/pronounciation in Japanese remained the same. Which I find CRAZY. Because each character is a single syllable in Chinese, in Japanese they proliferate syllables. AMAZING.

As for the inflected tones, I think it might be easier for you gwai lo's to simply approximate the inflections in a sing-songy way. You'd probably sound like you're over-enunciating to a native speaker, but I'd think you'd be more comprehensible. (Possibly untrue because Michelle Yeoh's Mandarin in "Crouching Tiger" was totally incomprehensible to me.)

Anonymous

7 years ago

[info]cureless

7 years ago

Anonymous

7 years ago

[info]cureless

7 years ago

Anonymous

7 years ago

[info]cureless

7 years ago

[info]aerislanne

7 years ago

[info]maandusa

December 28 2004, 19:03:03 UTC 7 years ago

i would LOVE to learn any Chinese dialect.

*sigh* unfortunately, i don't have much of a knack for learning languages.

i can barely remember any of the German i learned in high school.

[info]davesha

May 17 2005, 17:26:25 UTC 7 years ago

As someone mentioned before, Mandarin/Catonese/etc are all different languages and NOT different dialects of Chinese. Chinese as a language does not exist. One language is just propaganda by the PRC to the western world that China is one homogenous nation which therefore renders Taiwan and Tibet rebellious when asserting their own deserved individuality.

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 19:17:41 UTC 7 years ago

"horse" and "come" translate to chinese should be "馬" & " 黎 " ......haha ~ ...

Nam~

Anonymous

January 5 2005, 06:59:43 UTC 7 years ago

NoNo

It should be "馬", "來"~

[info]tigertone

December 28 2004, 19:37:38 UTC 7 years ago

learning languages

Elyse, that wasn't a boring entry at all to me. One of my favorite parts of traveling is learning to speak in a different tongue. I'm posting my first comment after two weeks of trying to catch up on all your journal entries. I've been identifying with so many of your experiences since I just came back from Japan in November. Not to mention I was born in Hong Kong, speak Cantonese, live in NYC, and am an atheist. Needless to say, I enjoyed your rants from S1 of ANTM.

As far as Cantonese is concerned, I know exactly what you mean with the tones but I can't help much since I spent 99% of my life in the states. Sometimes I think I'm fluent just because I can speak to relatives and order in a restaurant but then when I listen to Chinese radio or tv, I realize how little I know. I basically have a 3rd grade or worse Chinese vocabulary.

I agree that you never really forget things you learned early on. It just gets shoved to the back of your brain somewhere. I took French for a few years in junior high and high school. I thought I had forgotten everything until I went to Montreal for a weekend and so much of the language came flooding back just by hearing it and seeing written signs.

So keep listening and practicing your new languages and most of all, keep writing these interesting entries.

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 19:42:13 UTC 7 years ago

Re: learning languages

aint most of the people from Hong Kong are atheist? ;)

[info]tracyteachart

December 28 2004, 20:32:21 UTC 7 years ago

Props and mandarin

I'm so glad someone mentioned the 5th tone in Mandarin- I was confused for a minute. I was trying to figure out the final tone in "Ni hao ma?" That "ma" is the 5th tone, am I correct? I'm American and suck at languages though I've taken classes in French, Spanish, German and 4 quarters of Mandarin. My boyfriend from Malaysia spoke Cantonese and couldn't read characters, I spoke toddler-style Mandarin and could read about 300 characters at one point - now I know about 10. So sad.

How do you function there without speaking the language? I'm really curious.

I absolutely love this blog- it is one of my favorite sites. I'm so glad you are carving a real modeling career out of that show. I think you have the most successful career of the contestants so far. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Thanks for the intelligent comments and snark- it is a great read.

[info]aerislanne

December 29 2004, 00:14:04 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Props and mandarin

The 5th, oft-ignored tone in Mandarin is the umlaut, which isn't used often. The only common example I can think of is "nu," meaning "woman" or "female." The final tone in "ni hao ma?" is considered the 1st tone. (Some people would pronounce it as the 4th tone. Doesn't really matter-- I speak Cental/Southern Chinese, which isn't quite the "Beijing Ideal.")

[info]cureless

7 years ago

Anonymous

December 28 2004, 20:55:28 UTC 7 years ago

A refreshing look at the industry and at life

Elyse,

First and foremost, your journal is absolutely hilarious. Being submersed into another culture halfway around the world always provides oppurtunities for comical revelations and encounters, and I see that your experience seems to be no different.

Allow me to introduce myself (seeing how I have some time to kill before I leave to catch an afternoon movie) I'm Jason, I'm 18 and I (unfortunately) live in the suburbs of Philadelphia. I saw you on Top Model season 1 and I was amused by some of your more blunt observations of the other girls and of the industry itself.

I've been to a couple of agencies and while agents have encouraged me to continue seeking represenation I haven't managed to get anything as of yet. I plan to attend FIT (Fashion Institute of Technology) in the fall and begin working on the business end of the industry, seeing how having a functioning brain can ensure success as well.

Last but certainly not least, thanks for being honest. So many people try to deny this but there sure are a lot of dumb, empty headed people out there and it's refreshing to see that at least someone out there has the guts to show them for what they truly are.

Good luck with everything!

Ciao
Jason

[info]periwinkle

December 28 2004, 20:57:49 UTC 7 years ago

"Chinese chinese chinese Elsie chinese..."

You really don't have to roll out the "sorry this is dry and long-winded" preface every time you post something more challenging than a picture of King Fuk Street. It's not like some JAMA treatise erroneously turning up in an issue of Hustler. You are the thinking man's hottie, after all, and the thinking man does not wish for your dorkathons to be pruned! The raft of substantive comments this entry has already drawn speak for themselves (in just the right singsongy tones).

[info]elysesewell

December 30 2004, 13:38:44 UTC 7 years ago

Re: "Chinese chinese chinese Elsie chinese..."

Okaaay, maybe I was fishing for validation, but if you think I'm going to narrate a PBS-ass "edutainment" after-school-special on this topic for the Network, you're dead wrong. Our goal is to ENTERTAIN the youth, not make them flip the channel to "Blue's Clues."

[info]o_nevermind

December 28 2004, 22:07:33 UTC 7 years ago

chinese is hard! cantonese has like 7 tones! learn mandarin, it only has 4. or learn some of the characters. japanese is easier to pronounce, but the grammar is harder. ugh. I hate Chinese, I think I might be tone deaf. There is one dialect that is flat and doesn't use tones, though. I think it's Hakka. Not sure.

[info]aerislanne

December 29 2004, 00:16:28 UTC 7 years ago

I don't find one dialect much harder to learn, just a matter of practice when it comes to pronounciation. Kinda helps to have someone who is a native speaker who can help and correct you.

And while Mandarin will probably be more useful in the long run... Cantonese has the better insults. "Pok gai!"

Anonymous

7 years ago

[info]aerislanne

7 years ago

[info]wacoose

December 29 2004, 03:09:29 UTC 7 years ago

Your mom seems very cool.

[info]paulkienitz

December 29 2004, 03:18:25 UTC 7 years ago

I'm actually kind of surprised that your neurons are having trouble taking in Cantonese inflections... I've had no exposure to such languages, but I have no trouble picking up those distinctions. And in general, I rarely have trouble with foreign pronunciations, though my youth contained not a trace of any other language. I kind of assumed that since you are about as smart as me :) that it would be like that for you too.

The difference, maybe, is that I was exposed to a lot of music. And now as an adult I have perfect pitch. Maybe having a musician's sort of ear is a decent substitute for having a multilingual ear. Maybe if you end up hanging out with any more people in bands you can see if they have an easier time with Cantonese inflecting than you have.



Any bets on when this journal hits the point of having one hundred responses per entry? At the present rate of growth, it might take only a few more weeks.

Anonymous

December 29 2004, 03:40:02 UTC 7 years ago

About Cantonese & Chinese Characters

As a Hong-Konger, I can tell you that Cantonese is really hard to learn. As you have stated, there are only 4 vowel tones in Mandarin(or officially called Putonghua), yet in Cantonese there are 9 (not 7, though only 7 of them are in common use). Foreigners usually find difficulties in distinguishing them as there are no such things in Western languages.
However, ACCENT remains the major problem. The accent in HK is different from that in Guangzhou, even though both cities are in short distance. So when you are in Guangzhou, you may become more confused. One of my Chinese teacher said that Cantonese was nearly chosen over Mandarin as the official language in China. Nevertheless, after considering the confusion that would be caused by the accents of different people, they changed their mind at the very last moment. Good decision. A friend of mine from Taiwan once mispronounced "communication" as "intercourse" in Cantonese.
The Chinese characters, however, are simpler than you have expected. Yes, Chinese have to learn about thousands of Chinese characters, but the characters have their symbolic meaning. Some characters look alike what they represent, such as "hill", "water" and "mouth", while some have symbols showing what group they belong to and how they are pronounced, like "river' which consists of a "water" on its left and "hor" on its right, so "river" in Cantonese is pronounced as "hor". The only problem is that there are two types of characters in China: Traditional Characters, used in HK, Macau and Taiwan, and Simplified Characters used in mainland China. Even I cannot distinguish the latter ones since I was taught only the former at school.
But who will not have problems learning a new language? Many of us are fussy about English Grammar, because there are no "Tenses", "Prepositions", "Plurals" and "Agreements" in Chinese. Having learned English for more than 8 years,still I cannot write a grammatically accurate passage without careful proofreading.

The following website may be helpful in learning Cantonese:
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/
It will not be a problem if you cannot speak in Cantonese. I dare say HK people do not expect foreigners to speak in Cantonese in daily conversation, but if you want to see the shock on their faces you may do so as well.

Anonymous

December 29 2004, 13:29:10 UTC 7 years ago

Re: About Cantonese & Chinese Characters

Yup, we have 9 tones in Cantonese. And these 9 tones are divided into two main category. One category contains 3 tones, and are only words that with finals of plosive (i.e. /-p/, /-t/, /-k/).
It's not difficult to learn the pronunciation of Cantonese, as it can be illustrated in phonetic transcription as well. But the major problem for foreigners is the "tone". Some of the tones are very similar, for example tone 2 and 5, it's hard to differentiate.
Apart from tones, the other difference between Cantonese and English is the voicing. But few people would notice that. In Cantonese, there's no voiced consonants.

[info]cureless

7 years ago

[info]pyperina

December 29 2004, 05:50:43 UTC 7 years ago

As I'm sure we all know, Chinese isn't the only language in which hilarious goofs can be made. I once comforted my Spanish roommate by assuring her that her hotdogs were not spoiled because they contained a lot of condoms. (I said "preservativos" instead of "conservadores." Damn those devious Spanish words!)

Spanish (the only other language in which I am fluent) can be tricky from dialect to dialect, too. In Spain, where I picked up most of my Spanish, the verb "coger" means to get or to pick up. In the rest of the Spanish-speaking world, it's the f-word. (Am I allowed to swear in a livejournal? I'm new here.) Warning: saying you are going to coger the cat can cause your Mexican friends to burst into hysterical giggles.
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